Who is the Current Top Sire and Dam?, How many Show Champion Offspring? Options

[Angus]

N. R.Rogue has quite a few Aust Ch progeny here in Australia now- not sure how many in total though. I'd guess it would be between 10- 15.

N,R,Rogue has produced 10 aust champions in 2 litters with ch pepreone paper ribbon imp uk.

[Ian of Beetelian]

Nevedith Eefa Empra was made Ch after the original posts.

I believe that Ch Cobyco Cavalier has now sired 13 Champions?

Ian

[Morgan]

I believe that Ch Cobyco Cavalier has now sired 13 Champions?

Ian

That's just what I was wondering!!!
And Ch. Nevedith Veefa Vesper at Marchpast?

[playawhile]

I've probably not got all of his.  But again if you include oversees Ch's there's 13 of them 11 UK ones so I think that he is top sire.

OFFSPRING of: Ch Pencloe Dutch Gold

BREEDINGS

3. Breeding  -  Mithrandir Sweet Soprano at Hubbestad 
  1. Sw Ch Hubbestad Dutch Diamond (IMP) 

5. Breeding  - Ch Nutshell of Nevedith 
      5. CH Nevedith Major Mystery 

8. Breeding  - Ch Firedance at Silkstone 
  2. CH Silkstone Kantara

10. Breeding 28/11/1991 - Ch & Int Ch Silkstone Finesse 
  1. Ch & Aust Ch Silkstone Jewel in the Crown 

12. Breeding 8/1/1992 -  Crown Affair at Courthill 
  1. Ch Courthill Crown of Gold 

14. Breeding 13/6/1992 - Ch Mithrandir Spider Orchid 
  1. CH & Ir CH Mithrandir Panning for Gold 

15. Breeding 11/12/1992 - Ch Nutshell of Nevedith 
  1. Ch Nevedith Justa Jenie 
  2. Ch Nevedith Justa Jesta 
  3. US & CAN Ch Nevedith Justa Jigsaw 

18. Breeding 8/4/1993 -  Crown Affair at Courthill 
  1. Ch Courthill Classical Jazz at Dollygroves 

19. Breeding 28/10/1993 - CH Millwold Suntan 
  4. Ch Millwold Gold Dust to Exhurst

23. Breeding 13/4/1998 - CH Oakbark Mariel
  1. CH Oakbark Maneattraction

24. Breeding 1/1/1999 - CH Oakbark Mariel
  6. Ch Oakbark Millenium Gold

Hi!

All the ones I have listed beneath are champion offsprings by Dutch Gold who won the Swedish champion title.

I suppose that one have to seperate champion offspring in the UK and titles won outside the UK, as I am certain that Ligonier produced numbers of champions in a number of countries.


Courthill Campaigner
Courthill Crowning Glory
Hubbestad Double Dutch
Hubbestad Going Dutch
Hubbestad Dutch Ace
Hubbestad Dutch Diamond
Hubbestad Dutch Maid

Henrik Härling

[doris]

I've got a son of Hillsdown Fergal and Fire Dance at Silkstone!!

not a champion I'm afraid, but he's good enough for me

I've also got a son of Cobyco Candyman and Silkstone Kantara!!

not a champion either

Interesting topic though

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[Dusilla]

Thanks all for the updates

[petrezselyem]

Hm, and what about Starlines Reign On with his 125 Ch-offspring worldwide?

And a very good bitch: Bohem Of Thee I Sing (12 champions).

[Avalonia]

Hm, and what about Starlines Reign On with his 125 Ch-offspring worldwide?

And a very good bitch: Bohem Of Thee I Sing (12 champions).

I am the owner of important English bloodlines, including 4 Cdn.Ch. get out of Eng.Ch. Nevedith Justa Jesta and I have to tell you that you simply cannot mix apples and oranges because if you do you devalue the merit of the English championship title.

UK championships are exceedingly hard to get -- I am astonished that people will compete for two decades just to get cards for class placements and not give up in despair! -- , while an American or Canadian Ch. title (I am Canadian) are exceedingly easy to get if you have enough time, patience and money to shop your dog to the shows where you can win. (I don't mean really good quality dogs but so so dogs that really should never be made up and only are because their owners have more money than common sense).

You guys have just 37, going to 38 championship shows in which to finish a dog and competition at each of these shows is usually at least a hundred in each sex, or certainly a high two digit number.

In the USA you have at least a thousand shows a year and competition within the breed that may be as few as four or five dogs, if you live in the right remote state. The same applies to Canada. We have at least a couple of hundred shows a year where a dog can earn points towards a championship -- and in Canada and the US we earn points, not the exceedingly difficult CCs -- and in Canada you can still finish a whippet without it ever having met another whippet -- by picking up points by placement in the hound group.

The touted American champion, Starline Reign On has been bred to so many bitches its is unbelievable -- somewhere between 50 and 100 so his extreme number of Ch. get in a country where virtually any whippet can be shown to a championship title is neither remarkable nor surprising. In the US when a dog becomes a popular show dog people move like sheep to breed to the dog, whether or not the pedigree makes any sense at all, and then they campaign the hell out of the resultant get in the dog magazines. They also rely on professional handlers well known to all the judges, to show the deogs produced by the great..... (you name the flavour of the month top winning dog . It is not at all the same as England or even the same as FCI countries where some measure of quality is usually associated with a championship title.

I have nearly 20,000 whippet pedigrees, mostly English, because those are the whippets that most count in my world, and no English sire has produced more than 11 Eng.Ch. get. Nevedith Rare Rogue had 7 English champions and the pity is that he left England so early because those 7 were produced in just 11 litters (I own Eng.Ch. Nevedith Ceefa Ceely, his daughter out of Ch. Nevedith Justa jenie, and Ceely is the only Eng.Ch. resident in North America to my knowledge).. Had he been left in England and not exported, given his ratio of champions produced out of litters bred he almost certainly would have eclipsed the record of every dog sire. He was an outstanding sire and as much a fan as I am of Nevedith -- and our whole breeding program has been based on their breeding -- I cannot comprehend why he was sold abroad. I would have gone after the record!

Pencloe Dutch Gold is tied for the most in England with 11 champions, and Justa Jesta sits at 10 with Eefa Empra and Eefa Empress finished.

The record deserves to be made clear in so far as Millwold Gold Dust at Exhurst is concerned because contrary to all the rumors and conjectures and the wishes and hopes of all who have bred to him, the truth is this dog has been a relative dud in the whelping box having been bred many times to produce relatively few Eng.Ch. I count 5 Eng.Ch. in his descendants, and this out of at least 33 litters that I have recorded. His father Dutch Gold, and half brother, Justa Jesta were considerably more successful than he has been at producing Eng.Ch. get in far fewer litters.

Lanny Morry
Avalonia Whippets, Canada

[petrezselyem]

Well, thank You very much for Your long and interesting answer.
Yes, I know that breeding and showing is very different in England, in the USA, and of course in Eastern-Middle Europe, where I live.

So it is allways interesting for me hearing opinions from abroad.

Thank You again.

[aslan]

UK championships are exceedingly hard to get

Lanny in essence I agree with you but if I could just put my cynic's hat on for a second (and I very rarely wear this hat because if I wore it often I would give up showing ) ... I see some UK champions that seem to get the tickets because of who's on the end of the lead (as happens anywhere at any given time) whilst some exceedingly good dogs seem to go begging. They might get one CC but never win another.
Whilst in essence yes it is very difficult for a dog to become a UK champion it also seems incredibly easy for some.
Nowhere is the Utopia of dog showing.

[Avalonia]

UK championships are exceedingly hard to get

Lanny in essence I agree with you but if I could just put my cynic's hat on for a second (and I very rarely wear this hat because if I wore it often I would give up showing ) ... I see some UK champions that seem to get the tickets because of who's on the end of the lead (as happens anywhere at any given time) whilst some exceedingly good dogs seem to go begging. They might get one CC but never win another.
Whilst in essence yes it is very difficult for a dog to become a UK champion it also seems incredibly easy for some.
Nowhere is the Utopia of dog showing.

There is facey judging everywhere, and I have seen it in play in England where good dogs are put up by judges who rely on the well known face at the end of the lead to put up something safe and certain, but I have also seen well known breeder judges exercising their politics to put up something that looks like a field mouse because of breed politics -- right colour dog, right person at the end of hte lead, and maybe a favour traded in return for a CC down the road when that person is judging the other's dog.

But in all the years I have attended champ shows in England, and I have attended several score, I could generally see why the dog put up was put up. There are a lot of decent whippets, and a lot of mediocre ones, but the outstanding ones really do stand out if you carefully watch judging with nothing in it for you. Some decent dogs would do immeasureably better if their owners conditioned and exhibited them better, a fault not of the judges but of the owners themselves.

I have been very disappointed in recent years with the quality of the males out there -- too many bitchy dogs who can't move out decently (little drive in rear and too short upper arms which limit front extension... never a good thing and something desperately needing fixing before the straight shouldered American dogs now being introduced into pedigrees really wreck the whole front construction of English whippets), and a lot of big doggy bitches. I am also surprised at how many people use a champ show not as an occasion to really assess every dog going into the ring and assess why someone places and someone such as themselves doesn't, beyond assuming it is purely facey, but as a social occasion where the majority of those really watching the dogs seem to be the foreign visitors who sit taking notes of dogs, their movement and other assets, their pedigrees etc. while the rest are worried about what's on offer in the canteen.

People have to start picking their shows dogs not on the pretty head or the fact it is fawn and staying stuck in that colour warp (which exists nowhere in the world to this degree except in England) but on everything from topline to structure well linebred bloodline and critically, structure, including front and topline, and movement. In addition, too many of the dogs I saw at South Yorkshire a year ago, as a for instance, looked like they had rolled off the counch, ambled over to the food dish and back to the counch for their exercise. They were plump and un or under-conditioned -- I wanted to scream these are whippets folks not lapdogs -- and no matter how good someone may think they are an unconditioned whippet is not a pretty sight nor can you get the best out of it.

I also despair over the way their owners exhibit them -- casually like they are out for walkies so you cannot see their best merits, with far too many strung up on a tight short chain leash slapped close to their owners side so that even if the dog wanted to or were capable of moving out it is restrained from doing so.

And before anyone turns on me and says, well you are a foreigner and those are your opinions -- well yes and no. I am actually English born and carried an English passport for many years.

[Millie]

UK championships are exceedingly hard to get

Lanny in essence I agree with you but if I could just put my cynic's hat on for a second (and I very rarely wear this hat because if I wore it often I would give up showing ) ... I see some UK champions that seem to get the tickets because of who's on the end of the lead (as happens anywhere at any given time) whilst some exceedingly good dogs seem to go begging. They might get one CC but never win another.
Whilst in essence yes it is very difficult for a dog to become a UK champion it also seems incredibly easy for some.
Nowhere is the Utopia of dog showing.

There is facey judging everywhere, and I have seen it in play in England where good dogs are put up by judges who rely on the well known face at the end of the lead to put up something safe and certain, but I have also seen well known breeder judges exercising their politics to put up something that looks like a field mouse because of breed politics -- right colour dog, right person at the end of hte lead, and maybe a favour traded in return for a CC down the road when that person is judging the other's dog.

But in all the years I have attended champ shows in England, and I have attended several score, I could generally see why the dog put up was put up. There are a lot of decent whippets, and a lot of mediocre ones, but the outstanding ones really do stand out if you carefully watch judging with nothing in it for you. Some decent dogs would do immeasureably better if their owners conditioned and exhibited them better, a fault not of the judges but of the owners themselves.

I have been very disappointed in recent years with the quality of the males out there -- too many bitchy dogs who can't move out decently (little drive in rear and too short upper arms which limit front extension... never a good thing and something desperately needing fixing before the straight shouldered American dogs now being introduced into pedigrees really wreck the whole front construction of English whippets), and a lot of big doggy bitches. I am also surprised at how many people use a champ show not as an occasion to really assess every dog going into the ring and assess why someone places and someone such as themselves doesn't, beyond assuming it is purely facey, but as a social occasion where the majority of those really watching the dogs seem to be the foreign visitors who sit taking notes of dogs, their movement and other assets, their pedigrees etc. while the rest are worried about what's on offer in the canteen.

People have to start picking their shows dogs not on the pretty head or the fact it is fawn and staying stuck in that colour warp (which exists nowhere in the world to this degree except in England) but on everything from topline to structure well linebred bloodline and critically, structure, including front and topline, and movement. In addition, too many of the dogs I saw at South Yorkshire a year ago, as a for instance, looked like they had rolled off the counch, ambled over to the food dish and back to the counch for their exercise. They were plump and un or under-conditioned -- I wanted to scream these are whippets folks not lapdogs -- and no matter how good someone may think they are an unconditioned whippet is not a pretty sight nor can you get the best out of it.

I also despair over the way their owners exhibit them -- casually like they are out for walkies so you cannot see their best merits, with far too many strung up on a tight short chain leash slapped close to their owners side so that even if the dog wanted to or were capable of moving out it is restrained from doing so.

And before anyone turns on me and says, well you are a foreigner and those are your opinions -- well yes and no. I am actually English born and carried an English passport for many years.

Agree with everthing you have said there ........... good post

[malin]

Lanny Morry
Avalonia Whippets, Canada

Some really good points made in your two posts!

[petrezselyem]

Very interesting posts, and valuable conversation, thank You all.

Good topic at all.

[aslan]

Agreed. (But the canteen IS important.... one must think of one's stomach, can't be studying whippets on an empty one! )